I’m a little hesitant about pursuing my disagreement with Possum over election analysis and/or prediction any further. I don’t want to have a running feud with Possum. For one thing, I have better things to do. For another, I have a lot of regard for Possum’s work generally and don’t wish us to become enemies. For a third, who cares, really? The election’s over, we’re both happy with the result, what does it matter? So I will confine myself to the following:
The purpose of analysis of electoral behaviour during an election campaign should be to answer the question: “what is going on out there?” Possum and I, like all election commentators, live in an elite bubble. We can never think like a floating voter in Mackay or Para Hills. So we use various forms of intellectual endeavour to try to understand what those people are thinking and feeling. We can then use the insights we thus gain to enlighten our readers (assuming we have any).
“Predicting the result,” in terms of guessing how many seats the two sides will win and which seats will change hands, is a parlour game. It’s lots of fun for players and spectators, but of no real significance, certainly not compared with trying to understand what the Australian people are thinking and feeling about the choices put before them by the parties. It is, of course, of some political significance whether the result is going to be (say) a Labor landslide or a cliffhanger. A Rudd government with 100 seats would have been a very different government to a Rudd government with 76 seats. But whether Labor won with 81 seats or 84 seats is of no consequence.
There are several forms of intellectual endeavour which can be used to make useful comments and predictions about the likely outcomes of elections. Analysis of opinion polls is certainly one of them. My own view, however, as I said during the campaign, is that polls are no more than broadly indicative of what is going on. People do NOT always tell the truth to pollsters, and even when they do their answers can be very ambiguous.
The classic example of this was the 1992 British election, in which every poll, including even exit polls, showed Labour winning. But Labour did not win, and it seems that people did indeed lie to pollsters. Traditional Labour voters in England defected to the Tories because (a) they didn’t like Neil Kinnock’s Welsh accent and (b) they wanted Thatcher’s tax cuts. But they were so ashamed at their own prejudice and greed that they told everyone, including pollsters, that would vote Labour. They even told exist pollsters that they had just voted Labour when they hadn’t.
Polling companies that publish their findings to one decimal place, as if it made any difference, and journalists who go into a frenzy about a 1% shift this way or that, as if it was anything but statistical “noise,” do the public a real disservice by fostering the view that polls are far more scientific and meaningful than they really are.
There are other approaches to understanding electoral behaviour and to making predictions about it. One is to try to study it on the ground. I spent the last four weeks of the campaign working in a candidate’s office, in an area far from the inner-city elite suburb where I live. I spent my days talking to voters on the phone, and hearing from the candidate what voters were saying to him on their doorsteps and in shopping centres. From that I learned that working-class voters were genuinely angry about WorkChoices, while middle-class voters were at most “concerned” about climate change, and that if there were going to be very big swings to Labor, they would come from low-income areas and not from middle-class areas.
The insights of history, sociology and political science give us the ability to interrogate opinion poll data rather than just accept them as if they had the same status as, say, meteorological data. If I see a poll which shows a national or state-wide swing large enough for Labor to win Kooyong, I can ask myself: has Labor ever won Kooyong? Answer: no. I can ask: why is this? Is it because all members for Kooyong have been brilliant and all Labor candidates have been idiots? Is it because Kooyong voters are ignorant bigots? And I can answer: No. It’s because Kooyong voters are among the wealthiest, most privileged people in Australia, and they will naturally vote for the party that promises to preserve their wealth and protect their privileges.
If I am faced with a choice between an opinion poll which says that Labor will win Kooyong, and 106 years of history and political science which says they won’t, I will go with the history and the political science, and I will conclude that the poll is wrong, or at least wrongly interpreted. For this I may be scorned as a philistine by devotees of statistical infallibility, but nine times out of ten I will be proved right.
That’s why, when I saw Possum’s table of seats on 30 September, the very first thing I said, before I got into any arguments about statistical methods or whatever (about which I freely concede I know very little), was: “I’m not sure what the purpose of this exercise is when it so obviously defies commonsense and the observations of everyone in the political process.”
The question remains: what was the purpose of producing a table showing that Labor would win Warringah, Kooyong, Higgins, Goldstein and Wannon, when everyone with any knowledge of Australian electoral behaviour and history knew perfectly well that Labor was not going to win any of these seats? If Newspoll had asked 5,000 people in Warringah who they were going to vote for, and if 60% of them had said they were going to vote Labor, that would have been one thing, and even I would probably have had to accept it. But this table was not the result of seat-by-seat polling, it was simply an extrapolation of national polling. This was going a psephological bridge too far, to produce results which were plainly absurd. And the irrefutable proof of that proposition is that Labor didn’t in fact win any of these seats.
Possum has asserted that in publishing this table he wasn’t making any predictions. And I accept this is so, up to a point. When I asked him, he specifically said that he didn’t think Labor would win Kooyong or Warringah. But when I pressed him on more seats on the list, he said: “There is an average 11.6% swing against the government in its safe seats. For that to be wrong, thousands of people would have had to be telling lies to Newspoll over a 9 month period, which I simply do not believe.” So Possum clearly believed that at the time these polls were taken, people in seats like Warringah (margin 11.3%) were intending to vote Labor. Then he said: “For every safe government seat that swings less than the average amount, others in the same category will swing more.”
Now I hate to be pedantic, but the use of the word “will” clearly makes this a predictive statement. We can quibble about whether Possum meant to say “will” rather than “would,” whether his comments were predictive or conditional or whatever. If he says that he didn’t intend that statement to be predictive, I am happy to accept that. But the real question is: if the table was not predictive, what was the point of it? What was the purpose of publishing “a list of seats which a literal interpretation of Newspoll would suggest will fall to Labor, but which I along with all other sensible people know will not.”?
Possum says that I don’t understand much of his argument. He’s quite right. I failed Year 10 maths 39 years ago, and have been saved from total arithmetical incapacity only by the invention of the calculator. My scepticism about the statistical approach to psephology is therefore due in part to my inability to take that approach even if I was so minded. I am nevertheless duly respectful of the black arts of the statistician, of which Possum is clearly a senior initiate.
But, like the blind person who develops an especially acute sense of hearing as compensation, I have developed other ways of understanding the political process, partly through academic work in history and politics and partly through close involvement with politicians (I worked for one for five years) and with election campaigns over a long period of time. As I said earlier, I think this has given me at least as good an ability to make informed comments on, and even predictions about, Australian elections as I would have been able to acquire if I had been more mathematically blessed. It has certainly given me the ability to know an absurd prediction (or non-prediction) when I see one.
I might also say in conclusion that I didn’t realise at the time that Possum’s definition of a “safe” seat was a seat with a margin of more than 6%. This is far too low. Labor won seven Coalition seats with margins above 6% on 24 November, so clearly they weren’t “safe” by any reasonable definition of the word. Seats with margins just above 6% were Herbert, Kalgoorlie and McEwen, all classic marginals. My own tables use the following definitions: 0-4% very marginal, 4-8% marginal, 8-12% fairly safe, 12-16% safe, 16%+ very safe. This difference in definitions meant that we were talking at cross-purposes for much of the time. If Possum had said “There will be an 11.6% swing against the government in seats with margins over 6%” we might have had a different debate.
This will be my last comment on this controversy. I’m sure we all have better ways of spending our time than squabbling over the entrails of this election. The sun is shining, birds are singing, Kevin Rudd is in power and all’s (more or less) right with the world. I have an air-ticket to foreign parts booked for Boxing Day. In the meantime, the detailed returns of the Russian elections are awaiting attention. Peace on earth and goodwill to all men, women and possums.
December 13, 2007 at 1:26 pm
The reason I use 6% as the threshold for safe seat “classification” is simply because that’s what the polling companies use. I’m like you and think it’s a silly sized margin, especially considering the electorate seems more and more willing these days to engage in swings well over 6% in state and federal elections. But I can only work with the data I’m fed by the polling companies – they make that classification, I have to eat it.
On “why” I put up the list of seats is very simple; if I went through that process of trying to pull out how many seats the Newspoll quarterly suggested would fall at that point in time, and describing every step I took along the way so people could follow the process – the very final step was to tally up the number of seats that have a projected margin over 50% for one side to arrive at the final number. If I skipped that bit and just said the final number, the very first question that would have been asked was “can you put up the list of seats that you used to get your final result?”
So I just put up the list of seats, and tried to describe why those seat projections arent accurate for any given seat (just like a pendulum works when you apply a given national swing to it), but that it’s the total number of the seats that would fall which is the important bit (again, just like the national pendulum).
The reason why those individual seat margins dont matter but only the collective result of the margins matters, comes back to stats and how seats swing in a normal or nearly normal distribution, with a roughly equal number of seats falling above an average swing as fall below the average swing.
And to address the differences between our approaches, I think that about 70% of voter movement can be mapped with stats based on economic and social variables that can be measured, and individual seat polling and polling breakdowns can add about another 10-15% to that. That allows a fairly close estimate of the election result to made, even from 6 months out, all things being equal (of my 2 predections, the forecast from May of 87 seats was more accurate than the later 89 seats) – but my approach has very little to say about which exact seats will make up those numbers, and nothing at all to say about how things operate on the fringe of those numbers.
That will always be the realm of the political scientists. Stats and economics seems to be able to do the “how many” and often the “roughly, where they will likely be”… occasionally it can even provide some answers to the “why”, but the political scientitsts have the answers to “which ones will fall”
The best this stats approach can do is identify large groups of seats that are likely to move, but as a result of this “group” approach, it will also include seats that will simply defy the others – so seats like Leichhardt, Petrie, Forde and Longman can be seen to be moving fairly easily (and I got some flack for saying so earlier on in the year by the political science folk), but seats like McPherson, and statistically and demographically even Fadden get caught up in the mix.
But overall, it was an enjoyable election for many reasons – your field of study becoming more of a household word surely being one of them. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the debate, as well as the stick poking, and even your merciless prodding about Wannon.
The most interesting thing though was the fact that we both were of the view of the importance of Workchoices – you through your political science approach and understanding of the electorate, myself through stats and economic analysis against the polling data – yet both of us reached the same conlcusion by seperate means, and both way before the major commentariat and usual suspects ever figured it out. I think both of us had to put up with a few months of accusations over bleating on about mindless marxist cliches before the reality started dawning on people.
Anyway, congrats on a good election and I’ll link into this article on the bottom of my last post.
December 13, 2007 at 1:34 pm
[...] Adam gave a reply you can see over here. [...]
December 13, 2007 at 1:52 pm
hear hear
“tips hat” to both of you
December 13, 2007 at 4:06 pm
Ah! That’s beautiful, lads. Very classy. You’ve both been formidable players in the recent long campaign. As evidenced by the above exchange, your mutual professional respect far outweighs any differences in analysis. This now makes “participatory spectatorship” by assorted pol/poll/polly-junkies, all the more magical.
December 13, 2007 at 4:41 pm
Adam,
I am not wishing to cause friction between you guys however there is ‘out there’ a formula that should be able to be debated
1/ Possum lists in the 2nd Paragraph an UNKNOWN method using Newspoll
data he would have used to arrive at which seats would fall
We do not know what that method is
2/ Instead , as per Possums 3rd paragraph , he publishes a list of seats
which directly originate from Possum’s own ’swings formula’ using
Newspoll quarterly data
being seats that WOULD fall under the ‘ratios formula’ AT THAT TIME of
the Newspoll poll date if the Newspoll’s data is correct
I do not know whether Possum is saying as at the date of the Newspoll data , that Possums ’swings formula’:
a/ simply tells you HOW MANY total seats would be won at that time
from a formula aggregating seats per state and per 1 of 3 categories or
b/ in additional , the number of seats within each state within each of the
three seat categories , would be won at that time
with the seats nominated being the statistical selections
AND FAILING ANY OF THESE BEING WON ,
that other equivalent seats in that state will be won at that time ,
within that particular seat category of safe ALP, safe Lib and Marginal
3/ IF Possum only intends the object of the ’swings formula’ to be a/
ie. an alternative to the McKerras Pendulum giving total seats
then in fact Possum is STILLl using an aggregation of all the variable seat numbers by state and by category within each state which I listed in b/
to arrive at that total seat won figure
Conclusion
Either way , the ’swings formula’ aggregates by state and by category within each state a count of seats won
a/ Therefore for every ‘Warringah” listed which on historical evidence can not be won , you have to replace it with an EQUIVALENT 6% plus swing seat in THAT state
b/ the very publication of seats in Sept including numerous seats that will
NEVER ever be won but calculated directly using the ’swings formula’
tends to make the ’swings formula’ open to question
Adam , I would appreciate your views
December 13, 2007 at 4:58 pm
Ron – the method I used is detailed step-by-step very clearly in the current post on my site. The method IS NOT ABOUT WHICH seats will or would fall, merely the number. Those seats mentioned are the seats which gave the final number – however those seats in and of themselves, while containing many of the seats that would be expected to fall, dont contain ALL of the seats which would fall, and contain seats which would not fall. The reason for this is simple – it’s a pendulum that uses the probability of a normal, or approximately normal distribution around a given mean swing. Hence seats end up substituting for each other as they fall either side of that mean swing (or in this particular case which consists of a number of pendulums put together, mean SWINGS)
Putting it very very simply – it’s how normal or nearly normal probability distributions work in practice. The difference between this approach and a national pendulum is that it better accommodates any large state differences in swing, and where seats might be clustered within the individual state pendulums.
But the key point Ron, is that the margins on any given seat dont mean much, only the collective total seats produced by those margins have meaning, for that, afterall, is the point of the process.
This probably isnt the place for this – ask on my site.
December 13, 2007 at 6:16 pm
You blokes are both tops in my book, and your discussion this week has been exceptionally illuminating. Next election many of us will have a far deeper understanding of the reasoning and methods each of you employed to draw your conclusions.
What I found most disquieting is the possibility that Newspoll and perhaps others were potentially impacting on election results through their overemphasis on the two party preferred numbers and insignificant “noise” shifts which enhanced their “drama” value for newspapers.
Anyone with a cursory background in assessment of argumentation and debates would be stumped by the comments of Newspoll’s chief during his weekly interviews on Skynews during the campaign. His “interpretation” of each new poll invariably drifted into pure speculation, often ignoring some of his own primary vote intention data. For example, he always put paramount emphasis on the “better able to manage the economy” lead which the coalition held to support his theory that the final result would be a cliffhanger. Labor’s lead in questions about the other major campaign issues, especially industrial relations, rarely received serious consideration.
I’ll leave it to others to speculate whether Newspoll’s chief, The OZ, Skynews and the tabloid papers ultimately made some narrowing finally eventuate by incessantly providing the “cover” for “soft Labor” people to vote with their hip pockets beyond all their other considerations.
December 14, 2007 at 10:09 am
I think the influence of News Ltd on political events is greatly over-estimated, not least by News Ltd itself, and I think this election clearly illustrates that. A whole year of news manipulation and hysterical polemic by the country’s largest news organisation failed to make any impact at all on public opinion. Its only effect was to damage News Ltd’s brand, and particularly The Australian’s reputation as a quality newspaper. I don’t think the last-days narrowing had anything to do with News Ltd. It had to do with “Rudd liberals” changing their minds. The News Ltd tabloids had no effect on the decision by low-income voters to put Howard out.
December 14, 2007 at 2:20 pm
psephoblog , there is no evidence to support your contention
(nor indeed any evidence to dispute your contention)
Had the ACN , Morgan and Newspoll Polls done around the weekend before the Election (aprox. around 54-46) been the Election result a week later , then your contention would be undisputed
But the fact is 3 polls showed a Labor ‘landslide one week out from the election ‘broadly’ consistent with the previous 9 months
THEN in the last week ‘narrowing’ occurred
DESPITE Howard having a poor last week ,
Numerous theories since have been advanced to explain why:
from wet liberals , Morgan’s soft labor voters , the Doctor’s wives , Labor’s negative ads had become stale , Liberals negative ads had added more ‘bite’ to them (which they had) , Howard’s late campaign non means tested Private Schools rebate swung some swinging voters hip pocket nerve ,
many voters did not tell pollsters the truth , alot of swinging voters believed in change but the ‘devil you know’ OR Aussie swinging voters natural conservatism took over
or the Murdoch Press’s cumulative effect of anti labor message on some swing voters
we are done the wiser
and No poll will be able to tell us
December 14, 2007 at 7:56 pm
Adam,
Thanks for your comments about the greatly over-estimated influence of News Ltd on political events, the main point of which I concur. Hopefully, the rapid increase in readership of blogs like yours, Possums, and PB etc. have been a factor in eroding the impact of both print and television cheerleaders.
It might be of interest to note that News Ltd. outlets were not the only blatant Team Howard Cheerleaders this election. Oddly enough, the Fairfax-owned “Illawarra Mercury” incessantly fed its readers, the vast majority of whom reside in two hugely safe Labor seats, every possible Pro-Howard spin going.
“Mercury” campaign cartoons looked like paid Coalition negative ads, starting with that tired old “L” plate smear (strange how after the election the pundits discovered Labor’s wealth of frontbench talent). A plethora of fear-mongering anti-Labor letters to the editor, mostly by the same rabid bloke, were always given pride of place compared with pro-Labor letters. A final-week poll indicating that Lib Joanna Gash should retain Gilmour was an excuse to gift her a full frontpage, while Labor incumbents J. George and S. Bird rated scant coverage, naturally. The paper didn’t even bother to cover the Cunningham candidates’ forum which the Lib candidate avoided.
Most amusing of all was a final week special Young Voters feature interviewing one “typical” 18 year old, complete with his large photo. This lad declared proudly that he had never wavered from his intention to vote for Team Howard. Hey, guess we just don’t have any young Wollongong Team Rudd voters to provide a balance.
However, the noble journalistic integrity of “The Mercury” was kept in tact by their chickening-out of recommending a vote for either party. The final days of “cliffhanger” election headlines took all the guts they could summon, I’d surmise.
December 18, 2007 at 9:10 pm
Interesting reading, much psephology blood has been spilt, then mopped up and returned to the donor. I actually think alot of this particular disagreement is rther banal, however both Possum’s and Adams sites were the best reading during the campaign.